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kingracer · 2010-02-08 10:48:09

When I first started making reeds on a regular basis, I had a consistent problem splitting the cane while forming. I started using a hot mandrel which stopped the splitting instantly. So, I've continued doing it since it works for me.

Now that I'm older, more curious about why how things work, and have more time on my hands... I'm trying to find ways to improve my reeds. Would anyone care to share their thoughts on hot mandrel forming? More specifically, what adverse effects does it have on reed performance? I'm wondering if heating up the cane so much might break down the fibers at a cellular level, rendering the reed less responsive and with less of a core to its sound.

Thanks in advance for any insight you might have.

Jim

Trent · 2010-02-08 13:34:27

I did this in undergrad. No real problems with cracking as a result, but I didn't know how to make reeds really yet, so it's hard to say if it really made a strong difference in the final result.

Lately I've been soaking the cane in very hot tap water for about 5-10 minutes before forming. It definitely makes the cane more pliable, and cane from the same stock soaked only in room temp water crack more easily than the cane soaked in warm/hot water. The hot tap water is not nearly as hot as a heated mandrel, which really cooks the cane locally. I'm very happy with the reeds that I've made with the hot water soak, and it's just hot enough to soften the reeds without really cooking it I don't think.

Just my two cents.

ortreed · 2010-02-08 19:49:39

I soak my cane overnight, cut the collar before forming, put on the 1st wire, wrap from the middle of the blade to the butt with cotton string, and then put in the forming mandrel.

Never have any cracking problems.

Mark

Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra
Ortwein Bassoon Reeds
Yamaha Artist

minds_eye · 2010-02-08 19:53:27

have you tried forming without a hot mandrel and without wires? Wrap the soaked shaped/profiled/beveled/scored cane with a cotton shoe lace around the tube fairly tightly and no wires. Insert the mandrel and form. Leave the blank on the mandrel for 10-15 minutes after forming, then leave to dry on a drying rack overnight. Remove the shoelace. When you are ready to apply the wires, soak the blank for exactly 60 seconds then while on the forming mandrel start with the 3rd wire on up, slowly tightening each wire. Basically, get the wires in the right place, but do not tighten all the way. The slower you go with tightening the wires, the less likely it will crack. If this is confusing (and it probably is without seeing an example) or if you have any questions, let me know. There was a time I used to form with the first wire on and actually wanted a crack, but no more. I am not making the back of my reeds as thin as I used to and any crack that appears needs to be filed away. This leaves the back too thin and leaves the blade with an uneven arc from side to side. Hope this helps.

One last question, how many scores are you making on each tube? The more the merrier in my opinion. I usually have 8-10 each spaced 1mm apart with NO score directly in the center of the tube.

Brian

Trent · 2010-02-08 22:08:51

7 scores per side for me, one of them basically down the center. I also form with just string, no wires on at all. I let mine dry on the mandrels for 2-3 weeks before removing them and putting on the wires. I put the wires on dry.

kingracer · 2010-02-09 09:55:33

I score with a tap -- turns out to be 7 nice little channels in the cane.

I have a question for those that form without wires... Do you often get slipped blades?

Including the suggestions from this thread, I've got plenty of tricks up my sleeve for preventing cracks if I decide to nix the hot mandrel. I was more curious if the hot mandrel is doing more damage than good. I'd be more eager to skip it if it were a contributing factor to poor reed performance. If not, I might as well leave it be. I think I'll try a batch half and half and do some comparing/contrasting.

Thanks for the tips!

minds_eye · 2010-02-10 00:09:12

I do get a slight slip usually. Ideally, symmetry is what to strive for. It is difficult to get a perfect blank with no slip at all, but you can control the slip during the wire tightening process. As long as it is slipped symmetrically and not one blade slipping outside both sides of the other blade (inveloped sp? I'm not an english major) it should turn into a good reed.

I formed with a hot mandrel only for a very short time but did not notice any real difference. The difference was I was using a straight tapered mandrel for the hot, but my throat was too narrow. I use the Reiger forming mandrel now (not hot) and it is basically even from the butt to the second wire, then tapers to the end. Not sure why I was getting the narrow throat, but it was also when I was forming with the first wire on (wire may have been too tight). I suppose I changed too many variables too quickly to really know more about "why" I did not like hot forming. I wish I knew more about the cellular level of hot vs cold.

Best of luck,
Brian

Trent · 2010-02-10 01:03:52

When I form without the wires it's because I bevel after the forming process when the cane is in tube shape and dry. I can create a slight bevel all the way up the blades this way (sand paper on a table) and then the real bevel at the 3rd wire. The slight bevel is really just a flattening of the edge so the cane is less likely to slip off in one direction or the other.

My reeds do slip on occasion, but it's usually nothing too serious and they still play well for me. I try to minimize it and I'm getting better. This new technique has been helping.

Susan Lawrence McCardell · 2010-07-10 00:31:35

In high school and college (many years ago now), I used a hot mandrel (heated up on the stove) as well as heated-up cane -- I was determined to not have cracks and did not, though this certainly must have shortened the life (and diminished the liveliness) of the reed.

For about seven years, I've been using the Reiger forming mandrel, which makes it almost impossible to crack a reed blank since it has an eliptical tip. The first wire can be made rounder, if desired, after wrapping and clipping the tip. I form with the first wire on and cotton thread over almost the entire reed blank (less firmly on the blades), after soaking cane in hot water for an hour and a half or longer, depending on schedule. I do scoring (with an Exacto knife) and beveling before folding over.

Still have fond memories of the sizzle and nice aroma of hot cane using a hot mandrel to form the tube (Trent: remember my nostalgia about that?!), but I love being able to form reeds without all that bother. Much easier for teaching reedmaking as well.

About scoring, I agree with Brian - about 10 scores, avoiding having one in the center. (I start the scores slightly below the marking for the first wire, just because I was taught that way -- may or may not make a difference, but I don't even remember the last time I had a crack past the collar.)

Last edited by Susan Lawrence McCardell (2010-07-10 00:38:42)

kingracer · 2010-07-10 08:38:02

Susan Lawrence McCardell wrote:
...this certainly must have shortened the life (and diminished the liveliness) of the reed.

I'm rather curious and weary of this myself. Why does heat during forming shorten life and stunt liveliness?

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#1 2010-02-08 10:48:09

Hot Mandrel Forming

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Re: Hot Mandrel Forming

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Re: Hot Mandrel Forming

#4 2010-02-08 19:53:27

Re: Hot Mandrel Forming

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Re: Hot Mandrel Forming

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Re: Hot Mandrel Forming

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Re: Hot Mandrel Forming

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Re: Hot Mandrel Forming

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Re: Hot Mandrel Forming

#10 2010-07-10 08:38:02

Re: Hot Mandrel Forming

Susan Lawrence McCardell wrote:

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